tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6298568350190982130.post9102105628846822846..comments2024-03-20T05:46:39.773+00:00Comments on Irish Energy Blog: Parasitic Consumption of Wind TurbinesIrish Energy http://www.blogger.com/profile/16354100971015557625noreply@blogger.comBlogger21125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6298568350190982130.post-42025189641933653872014-12-18T19:40:49.094+00:002014-12-18T19:40:49.094+00:00To say that the amount of wind energy you produce ...To say that the amount of wind energy you produce in a year is the same as how much wind energy is consumed, is the same as saying that if you have an old clapped out car and you fit a 4,000 litre fuel tank to it and fill it up with fuel, then you can be sure the car will keep motoring until the fuel is gone! This type of measurement is not used in any other facet of life. My videos explain this. By the way EU regulations on renewable energy state that the measurement must be by the amount of renewable energy consumed which is a laughable idea. Wind energy is a novelty, a niche and my videos show how it is a waste of effort. Countries with the highest wind are Denmark and Germany, they have the highest electricity prices in the world with no reduction in emissions. So if wind worked, they would be boasting about it. Sad after all that was spent on education. Some blame computer games for muddling young minds. To me explaining this is like telling an old Dublin man what a double decker bus is. Val Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03248166816744009791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6298568350190982130.post-48994404802859478602014-12-18T19:30:05.097+00:002014-12-18T19:30:05.097+00:00Admin, you need a system of identification simil...Admin, you need a system of identification similar the the Popes or British Kings. viz: Pope Richard 11, Richard the 111 or King Benedict V!!! or IX with all these Anonymous es LOLVal Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03248166816744009791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6298568350190982130.post-67078580833495378802014-12-18T19:25:54.484+00:002014-12-18T19:25:54.484+00:00It must be remembered that there is no recognized ...It must be remembered that there is no recognized way to measure the real contribution of wind generated electricity on a grid system. My videos are an attempt to quantify it with access to the most important date denied. This is at the behest of the wind industry with connivance of government. Remember house power is drawn every minute of every day, while load factor is about 25% only. Multiplying wind capacity capacity factor does not take account of the cost of accommodating wind on the grid. This is a hidden cost paid for by the consumer. Wind can never displace base load plant and can never be allowed exceed 50% of total. The ESB use credit capacity in their 2004 report and Eirgrid replicate this method in their 2010 - 2016 adequacy report. Capacity Credit decreases with increased penetration of wind and according to the ESB tends to zero. Experience world wide is that wind does not displace conventional plant when measured over one year and its contribution is in the order of 2% at high levels. At these figures, parasitic power would tip contribution into negative, meaning more not less fossil fuel is consumed because of windVal Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03248166816744009791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6298568350190982130.post-74250048987542149542014-12-18T19:13:47.848+00:002014-12-18T19:13:47.848+00:00The first question which springs to mind is why ar...The first question which springs to mind is why are we guessing? If you check out any industry accounts the amount and cost of electricity power used will be there in black and white. I allege that the entire payment scheme for wind turbines is kept deliberately complex to stop us finding out. It appears to be a "kind of make it up as you go along" accounting. At the Green Paper event in the Ballsbridge Hotel, an official from the DCENR said (in the presence of Minister White" they were too complex and needed reviewing, 40,065 mwh is enough to power 9,500 family homes, enough to power a town the size of Drogheda which I predicted in my videos before receiving the information.<br />Val Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03248166816744009791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6298568350190982130.post-35325852841670417602014-12-16T19:37:49.070+00:002014-12-16T19:37:49.070+00:00Different Anonymous. Thanks for that. Different Anonymous. Thanks for that. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6298568350190982130.post-64808703022914533362014-12-16T10:38:53.733+00:002014-12-16T10:38:53.733+00:00Hi, not sure if this is the same Anonymous as abov...Hi, not sure if this is the same Anonymous as above. The Minister recently stated that curtailment payments last year for wind farms was €7.5 million. Its usually between 2.5 to 3.5% of power produced. See Eirgrid Curtailment Reports. <br /><br />When the wind is below cut in speed, they still get paid capacity payments for making their capacity available. Info available at semo website.Irish Energy https://www.blogger.com/profile/16354100971015557625noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6298568350190982130.post-52590378672779646162014-12-16T00:07:44.081+00:002014-12-16T00:07:44.081+00:00Does the Erigrid website say those things somewher...Does the Erigrid website say those things somewhere? I can only see the bit about how it doesn't include generator requirements.<br /><br />I don't know what happened on 11th October. Clearly there was something different compared to the same day on the previous year, but there's no evidence linking the extra demand to the lack of wind. Using the whole data set does not pick out the link because there isn't one. There's no correlation, my graphs in previous comments show that. Cherry picking one day, then saying "I don't know why it's different, so it must be X" is not a good way to work.<br /><br />Here is another day in 2014 where (unlike in 2013) there was no wind:<br /><br />http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e297/Psycho_Raptor/2014oneDay_zpsbc1c20e3.png<br /><br />Demand is pretty much identical, there are very slight differences in both directions, but mostly the same.<br /><br />Here is a day in 2004 where again, there is no real wind, but there was in 2003. Despite that, 2003 had a slightly higher demand:<br /><br />http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e297/Psycho_Raptor/2004oneDay_zps619421a1.png<br /><br />The day before that, wind was pretty similar in both years, and so was demand. If anything, the times when 2004 was less windy, with a negative power output, correspond to times when there was less demand:<br /><br />http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e297/Psycho_Raptor/2004oneDay2_zps8529c214.pngAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6298568350190982130.post-54592257425835290482014-12-15T23:59:50.746+00:002014-12-15T23:59:50.746+00:00This is all interesting, but largely academic. If ...This is all interesting, but largely academic. If they wind farms use parasitic power they pay for it so it comes off the bottom line, or am I mistaken.?<br /><br />Of more interest is the payments the wind farms get when they are not actually producing electricity, either because it's too windy or not windy enough. I haven't been able to figure out how these payments are calculated, is there a source for this information.<br /><br />There is some info on the UK news papers, however there doesn't seem to be anything with regard to Irish constraint payments.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6298568350190982130.post-31943792073910336422014-12-15T20:33:24.419+00:002014-12-15T20:33:24.419+00:00Still no explanation forthcoming for what happened...Still no explanation forthcoming for what happened on the 11th OctoberIrish Energy https://www.blogger.com/profile/16354100971015557625noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6298568350190982130.post-9870378603524745252014-12-15T20:31:23.057+00:002014-12-15T20:31:23.057+00:00
Thanks Val for that info. Its quite a large amoun...<br />Thanks Val for that info. Its quite a large amount. The analysis shown on my blog refers to one day where an extraordinary deficit of wind was experienced and the inference is that they used much larger amounts of parasitic power than normal. So it wouldnt make sense to take my figures and multiply by 365. They would use alot less on an average day. <br /><br />I note from the comments on your video that you found out they were charged for the electricity which my analysis seems to agree with. <br /><br />*Anonymous* You need to work off a 28-30% CF.Irish Energy https://www.blogger.com/profile/16354100971015557625noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6298568350190982130.post-64837331032441950732014-12-15T20:24:55.248+00:002014-12-15T20:24:55.248+00:00You are right that Eirgrid shows net of generators...You are right that Eirgrid shows net of generators requirements. But on 11th Oct it is a different situation. Eirgrid can estimate the house load every day very easily but they cant estimate it for a day like the 11th when the wind fleet may have been using much larger amounts of grid power than normal. This would have shown up on their demand profiles as it would have diverged significantly from the normal house load. You need to be able to differentiate between normal house load and what *possibly* happened on the day in question. Irish Energy https://www.blogger.com/profile/16354100971015557625noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6298568350190982130.post-8583132363206300642014-12-15T19:03:01.465+00:002014-12-15T19:03:01.465+00:00Also, you used the demand data from Eirgrid as fou...Also, you used the demand data from Eirgrid as found here:<br /><br />http://www.eirgrid.com/operations/systemperformancedata/systemdemand/<br /><br />which actually states that it does *not* include demand from generators themselves. So you won't be able to find how much the generators use from that data.<br /><br />The supply data for Eirgrid does seem to go negative sometimes, so that allows the net energy supplied to, and taken from, the grid to be calculated by numeric integration. I get 4.6 TWh of energy delivered to the grid between 01/01/2014 and 13/12/2014, and only 10.5 MWh consumed* during the same period. The net production is still 4.6 TWh (to one decimal place).<br /><br />And see Val Martin's comment for figures from an AIE request, which put the total energy consumption during 2012 by wind generators at 40 GWh. This compares to the total energy generation by wind generators in that year of 16 TWh (400 times more than the consumption). The generation figure is calculated (by me) as if the generators were running at maximum capacity all year, which is clearly not true, but there's still going to be a net generation when there's a factor of 400 to eat into.<br /><br /><br />* from the grid anyway. The real consumption will be higher when the energy required was being supplied by the wind generators themselves.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6298568350190982130.post-72361215363667730932014-12-15T18:33:33.774+00:002014-12-15T18:33:33.774+00:00Ah I think I made a really big mistake there, sorr...Ah I think I made a really big mistake there, sorry! The energy produced is much less than I said, it's actually only 16 TWh. That's still around 400 times more than the electricity consumed from the grid though, so again, still good net generation even if they didn't operate at full capacity.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6298568350190982130.post-18705049000206688362014-12-15T18:23:29.351+00:002014-12-15T18:23:29.351+00:00Hi Val Martin, that's 40065 MWh of *energy* du...Hi Val Martin, that's 40065 MWh of *energy* during the course of one year (2012), to run wind turbines with a *power* capacity of 1850 MW, correct?<br /><br />Using your numbers: if those turbines ran at full capacity for the entire year, they would produce 58 PWh of energy. That's about 1.5 million times more energy than the electricity they consumed from the grid. Of course, it's unlikely they'd run at the full 1850 MW all year, but 1.5 million factor is so huge that it's pretty clear how big the net generation effect is.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6298568350190982130.post-32518628755894222682014-12-15T12:32:09.184+00:002014-12-15T12:32:09.184+00:00From an AIE request the Republics wind farms consu...From an AIE request the Republics wind farms consumed 40,065 mega watt hours of grid power in 2012.Val Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03248166816744009791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6298568350190982130.post-9598301841192703582014-12-15T12:30:56.913+00:002014-12-15T12:30:56.913+00:00This video might help and is the best investigatio...This video might help and is the best investigation I could make in 2011.<br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abl_6mrSUqM&list=UUDylOm1eqwfMynNpaM0SpPQVal Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03248166816744009791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6298568350190982130.post-49421772592175914632014-12-15T00:27:25.772+00:002014-12-15T00:27:25.772+00:00You said:
"the wind output was particularly ...You said:<br /><br />"the wind output was particularly poor, even reaching minus 3MW on occasions... We would expect that the wind fleet would have been using grid power during this time to try to pick up any gusts and that this power consumption would be much larger than in 2013".<br /><br />In other words you claim that there should be more demand when the wind output is poor - that is a correlation. You didn't say linear, but nor did I. I did say "slope", but I meant "general increase" (I did also use that phrase in my last comment). In my graphs, including in the one day plot, there is no general increase in the difference in energy consumption as difference in wind generation gets larger. The data doesn't backup your claim.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6298568350190982130.post-83255579174458264992014-12-14T23:55:43.100+00:002014-12-14T23:55:43.100+00:001) + 2) I have not made a claim that demand increa...1) + 2) I have not made a claim that demand increases linearly when wind output is low<br /><br />3) I considered both. A sport game would not have resulted in such a large surge in consumption. Temp doesnt fit with time of day as I have said. I may have missed something though I accept that. Somebody working in the industry could point us in right direction but if my conclusions are right we wont hear anything.Irish Energy https://www.blogger.com/profile/16354100971015557625noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6298568350190982130.post-29748480441946964432014-12-14T23:25:44.938+00:002014-12-14T23:25:44.938+00:001) I know that you picked the same four days in ea...1) I know that you picked the same four days in each year. But why only four days? Were there only four days of poor wind performance in the year?<br /><br />2) On my graphs, the large, negative differences in the power supplied by wind (i.e. extreme left of the graphs) represent times in 2014 when energy production was much less than in 2013. If more power is consumed when there is less generation, then the data should be correlated, and slope upwards to the left. It does not. If you insist on only looking at one day, then here is the same graph comparing just 11/10/2014 and 12/10/2013:<br /><br />http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e297/Psycho_Raptor/NoCorrelationOne_zps752f662e.png<br /><br />There is still no correlation, the difference in energy consumption between the two days does not generally increase as the difference in wind generation increases. <br /><br />3 & 4) I gave those as temperature and football as two possibilities because you said "it is difficult to attribute the variation [in demand] to any other factor". Had you considered temp and sport before my comment? What other factors have you considered?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6298568350190982130.post-56898077754802564612014-12-14T22:51:23.740+00:002014-12-14T22:51:23.740+00:001) It is very important to pick days from the mont...1) It is very important to pick days from the month that is been analysed. No point in comparing demand profiles from February when October is been analysed. That is why 2 periods of Thurs - Sun were taken from the month that the poor wind performance occurred in. If I didnt do this, I would be accused of picking days that suited the conclusions.<br /><br />2) Your graphs do not tell us what occurred in the above period. Of course there were days where wind farms did not use huge amounts of grid power e.g. if the price for same was too high. This is not in dispute. The question is what occurred on the 11th October.<br /><br />3) Temperature records from Phoenix Park show mean temps of 11.9C for 12/10/2013 and 12.17C for 11/10/2014 during the hrs 9am-3pm. Also, Valentia shows a higher min temp and max temp for 2014. So temperature isnt the cause. Anyway, you wouldnt expect it to be a factor between these hours. It would be a factor after 5-6pm. So it is possible that it was a factor during 7-10pm but the two horned spikes that occurred here dont make sense if it was.<br /><br />4) As for it been the football match, Im afraid this most definitely isnt the cause. Kick off was at 5pm and the match went on till 6.30pm. Demand actually dropped during this period !Irish Energy https://www.blogger.com/profile/16354100971015557625noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6298568350190982130.post-24201725009138223982014-12-14T18:38:20.055+00:002014-12-14T18:38:20.055+00:00This is some pretty terrible data analysis.What...This is some pretty terrible data analysis.What's the significance of using four days out of an entire year for comparison? It looks like your source has data for every day (well, not quite for 2014 yet). Even ignoring that short time period though, this isn't the right way to deal with the data.<br /><br /><br />A better method would be to plot the difference in electrical demand between 2014 and 2013 against the difference in wind supply between the same two dates, which I have done in this picture (see link. If it doesn't open full screen then right click, view image):<br /><br />http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e297/Psycho_Raptor/NoCorrelation_zps8f5c3ead.png<br /><br /><br />The correlation you claim just isn't there. Also see the (almost) full year of data:<br /><br />http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e297/Psycho_Raptor/NoCorrelationAll_zps7d5d8e5e.png<br /><br /><br />Also, you say "it is difficult to attribute the variation [in demand] to any other factor", which is not true, many things can vary between years that would affect grid demand, especially when only four days are being compared. Temperature is one example, but considering that you focus particularly on 11th Oct 2014, and use Irish data, some of the demand variations could be due to the Ireland-Gibraltar football match that day.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com